This is the email correspondance I had with Norm on his site when I first ran across it on the Internet. It had been recommended as a site to avoid at all costs since it was obviously fluffy. I wrote him out of a desire to help, without malice, and you can see the entire conversation as it followed. The only editing I have done was to cut out irrelevant and redundant text that was included in forward after response after response and response. I also put ">" in front of the text being responded to since a good section of this correspondance was sent in HTML format with special colors and so on. I have not altered the text at all. I also cut out irrelevant footers and signature lines. But each and every one of these emails is unchanged except for formatting changes, and I can forward the whole lot to anyone who wishes to see these. Daven 11-12-03 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 4:39 AM Subject: Okaaaaay Dear Norm, I just went over your site and I think there are a few problems. I think you have confused ALL witches with Wicca. Now, I will grant you that Wiccans are Witches. However, not all Witches are Wiccan. There are many types of Witches out there (Pennsylvania Dutch Hexmeisters, Brujo/Brujas, Voodoo mambos and Hoguns, Strega practitioners to name a few) who are NOT Wiccan and never have been. To say things like all witches obey the rede and so on is a gross misstatement. I think you may wish to update your FAQ and so on to reflect this. Stars light your path. Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay I see your point...will make the change. But, what are the "FEW problems"???? BB, Norm Daven wrote: >Dear Norm, > >I just went over your site and I think there are a few problems. I think you have >confused ALL witches with Wicca. > >Now, I will grant you that Wiccans are Witches. However, not all Witches are Wiccan. >There are many types of Witches out there (Pennsylvania Dutch Hexmeisters, Brujo/Brujas, >Voodoo mambos and Hoguns, Strega practitioners to name a few) who are NOT Wiccan and >never have been. To say things like all witches obey the rede and so on is a gross >misstatement. > >I think you may wish to update your FAQ and so on to reflect this. > >Stars light your path. > >Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay Sorry, that was the biggest I saw, give me some time to go through it all. It was really late when I wrote that. ;-) Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay Pls note that my site is a GENERAL statement about all Witches......i can't cover "every nook and cranny" that differs! For example, the inverted Pentagram is a 2nd Degree symbol for a VERY VERY VERY small group of Witches......but to MOST people -- incl ME -- it's a 'satanic symbol'. Hence, i won't go into details like this on my site...it would be too confusing. Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay Okay, here is what I saw that is, in my research and thoughts, incorrect. Please note I did not focus on dogmatic differences, like your definition of Wiccan and Witch, although I wanted to. Daven From the Facts page: >>Witches don't do evil. Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Wicca has the Rede, but most other schools of witchcraft don't. In fact, I can't think of any other magickal tradition, with the possible exception of the OTO and Christianity, that have such statements of ethics. And neither of them are witchcraft traditions. >>Witches also believe in the "Three-Fold Law" Once again, confusing the morality of Wicca with Witchcraft in general. Voodoo witches don't have this, nor do Strega. >>Witches do NOT believe in or worship Satan, and do not perform any sort of human or >>animal sacrifices. Some witches do believe and worship Satan, such as the whole LeVey set. Voodoo does perform animal sacrifice all the time, it's integral to their tradition, and while human sacrifice isn't practiced, bloodletting and so on is done. >>Satan is a relatively new concept that originated with Christianity. Incorrect. It actually originated with Zoroaster and the concept of "good god, evil god" and duality, it migrated from there to Judaism and Shitan, and from there went to Christianity. The actual name may have come from Christianity, but the concept has been around for at least two millennia. >>We are non-proselytizing; we don't seek to convert anyone . This is changing in recent years, look at the proliferation of Llewellynesque books that keep saying the same thing. From the FAQ >>You can NOT do a spell to attract a particular individual to you;but you CAN do one to >>attract the person most suited for you. I beg to differ, it is entirely possible to attract a specific person to you, it's called a glamour. Three may be some consequences you don't anticipate, and it may not be what you want it to be, but it is possible. For an example of this in Wicca, check out "Heather, Confessions of a Witch". >>Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. >>Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it >>would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" >>sort-of-thing). Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. There are Christian Witches and always have been. Wicca claimed to be "the Old Religion" in one of Gardner's books, and that is the origin of that statement. As for 3 fold law, Wiccan rede and so on, Witchcraft does not have those morals, WICCA does. Witchcraft *is* an anything goes way of life. The religion part comes from the frame of religion it's practiced in. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay >Okay, here is what I saw that is, in my research and thoughts, incorrect. Please note I >did not focus on dogmatic differences, like your definition of Wiccan and Witch, >although I wanted to. >Daven >>From the Facts page: >>Witches don't do evil. >Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make >their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Wicca has the Rede, but most other >schools of witchcraft don't. In fact, I can't think of any other magickal tradition, >with the possible exception of the OTO and Christianity, that have such statements of >ethics. And neither of them are witchcraft traditions. True.....BUT....how would YOU word it, as not to be confusing to a Cowan???? >>Witches also believe in the "Three-Fold Law" >Once again, confusing the morality of Wicca with Witchcraft in general. Voodoo witches >don't have this, nor do Strega. That can easily be fixed. >>Witches do NOT believe in or worship Satan, and do not perform any sort of human or >>animal sacrifices. >Some witches do believe and worship Satan, such as the whole LeVey set. THEY ARE NOT WITCHES! there is no such thing as a "satanic witch", despite what LeVey says! If you disagree, then DEFINE "satanic witch"! LeVey's version of "satanism" is NOT the same as the original meaning. -- "the worship of satan". HIS is a hedonistic belief that believes in satisfying all your desires........... >Voodoo does >perform animal sacrifice all the time, it's integral to their tradition, and while human >sacrifice isn't practiced, bloodletting and so on is done. I don't recall talking about Voodoo....where?????? >>Satan is a relatively new concept that originated with Christianity. >Incorrect. It actually originated with Zoroaster and the concept of "good god, evil >god" and duality, it migrated from there to Judaism and Shitan, and from there went to >Christianity. The actual name may have come from Christianity, but the concept has been >around for at least two millennia. Yes....the Mazda thing........ok, i'll give u that one. >>We are non-proselytizing; we don't seek to convert anyone . >This is changing in recent years, look at the proliferation of Llewellynesque books that >keep saying the same thing. Me no savvy.......they are EDUCATIONAL books....not "proselytizing"! >>From the FAQ >>You can NOT do a spell to attract a particular individual to you;but you CAN do one to >>attract the person most suited for you. >I beg to differ, it is entirely possible to attract a specific person to you, it's >called a glamour. Three may be some consequences you don't anticipate, and it may not >be what you want it to be, but it is possible. For an example of this in Wicca, check >out "Heather, Confessions of a Witch". *I* (and most Witches, i might add) consider this WRONG, because you are manipulating someone!!!!!!!!!!! How would YOU word this???????? And, PLS don't mention Strega!!!!!!!!!!!! >>Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), >There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. It's BOTH, actually, but you're in the minority, my friend........... >>Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it >>would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" >>sort-of-thing). >Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. There are Christian Witches and always have >been. Wicca claimed to be "the Old Religion" in one of Gardner's books, and that is the >origin of that statement. As for 3 fold law, Wiccan rede and so on, Witchcraft does not >have those morals, WICCA does. Witchcraft *is* an anything goes way of life. The >religion part comes from the frame of religion it's practiced in. MAN! I disagree with THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm flabbergasted! I'm gonna refer your letter to my online group, the Twisted Witches......i would like THEIR feedback. SOME things i agree with....others, NEVER! Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "TheTwistedWitches" ; Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:16 PM Subject: HELP! A Witch has written me, criticising some of the statements i made on my website......they are below. I'm asking for all of YOUR opinion on what he has to say..........i'm also enclosing his email addy, so you can write to him directly..... but, PLS SEND ME A COPY OF YOUR EMAIL TO HIM!!!!!!!!! And, IF you agree with him, i would like you to re-word my site.....the utmost thing in my mind is not to confuse Cowans....... I can't say that "Witches are so-and-so, EXCEPT if this-and-that, OR this-and-the-other........ Here's his letter: (HIS remarks have the red line next to them) ======================= >Okay, here is what I saw that is, in my research and thoughts, incorrect. Please note I >did not focus on dogmatic differences, like your definition of Wiccan and Witch, >although I wanted to. >Daven >>From the Facts page: >>Witches don't do evil. >Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make >their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Wicca has the Rede, but most other >schools of witchcraft don't. In fact, I can't think of any other magickal tradition, >with the possible exception of the OTO and Christianity, that have such statements of >ethics. And neither of them are witchcraft traditions. True.....BUT....how would YOU word it, as not to be confusing to a Cowan???? >>Witches also believe in the "Three-Fold Law" >Once again, confusing the morality of Wicca with Witchcraft in general. Voodoo witches >don't have this, nor do Strega. That can easily be fixed. >>Witches do NOT believe in or worship Satan, and do not perform any sort of human or >>animal sacrifices. >Some witches do believe and worship Satan, such as the whole LeVey set. THEY ARE NOT WITCHES! there is no such thing as a "satanic witch", despite what LeVey says! If you disagree, then DEFINE "satanic witch"! LeVey's version of "satanism" is NOT the same as the original meaning. -- "the worship of satan". HIS is a hedonistic belief that believes in satisfying all your desires........... >Voodoo does >perform animal sacrifice all the time, it's integral to their tradition, and while human >sacrifice isn't practiced, bloodletting and so on is done. I don't recall talking about Voodoo....where?????? >>Satan is a relatively new concept that originated with Christianity. >Incorrect. It actually originated with Zoroaster and the concept of "good god, evil >god" and duality, it migrated from there to Judaism and Shitan, and from there went to >Christianity. The actual name may have come from Christianity, but the concept has been >around for at least two millennia. Yes....the Mazda thing........ok, i'll give u that one. >>We are non-proselytizing; we don't seek to convert anyone . >This is changing in recent years, look at the proliferation of Llewellynesque books that >keep saying the same thing. Me no savvy.......they are EDUCATIONAL books....not "proselytizing"! >>From the FAQ >>You can NOT do a spell to attract a particular individual to you;but you CAN do one to >>attract the person most suited for you. >I beg to differ, it is entirely possible to attract a specific person to you, it's >called a glamour. Three may be some consequences you don't anticipate, and it may not >be what you want it to be, but it is possible. For an example of this in Wicca, check >out "Heather, Confessions of a Witch". *I* (and most Witches, i might add) consider this WRONG, because you are manipulating someone!!!!!!!!!!! How would YOU word this???????? And, PLS don't mention Strega!!!!!!!!!!!! >>Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), >There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. It's BOTH, actually, but you're in the minority, my friend........... >>Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it >>would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" >>sort-of-thing). >Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. There are Christian Witches and always have >been. Wicca claimed to be "the Old Religion" in one of Gardner's books, and that is the >origin of that statement. As for 3 fold law, Wiccan rede and so on, Witchcraft does not >have those morals, WICCA does. Witchcraft *is* an anything goes way of life. The >religion part comes from the frame of religion it's practiced in. MAN! I disagree with THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm flabbergasted! I'm gonna refer your letter to my online group, the Twisted Witches......i would like THEIR feedback. SOME things i agree with....others, NEVER! Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: ; "TheTwistedWitches" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:22 PM Subject: Question Daven, How long have u been in the Craft? Just curious.......mainly because some of your statements differ GREATLY from most Witches believe! Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Question Been studying magic/new age/religion/psychic phenomenon since I was 4 (1972) under my grandmother. Actively practicing Wiccan since 1991, Druid for 3 years. I'm currently teaching a class via email in Magick and one in OOBE. The problem is that in many definitions, Wicca != (does not equal) Witchcraft. Gardner has been quoted (although I would have to find the references) as wanting to reclaim the word Witch to make his new ceremonial magickal tradition of Wicca more connected with the past. He also recruited many witches (herb wives, horse talkers, and so on) into Wicca to claim it was ancient. I will grant a lot of things, like Wicca does not do evil, but a witch is a non-ceremonial spell caster, and in a lot of ways could also be considered to be midwives and so on. Recent claims that ONLY Wicca is witchcraft is stupid, criminal, and an insult to quite a number of Witch traditions out there that predate Wicca by centuries. Sorry, this is one of my personal sore spots. I used to claim that ONLY Wicca had witches in it, and that all Witches were Wiccan, but I did some meditation and had a one to one encounter with Hekate (the witch queen of the Greeks and the goddess of magick) and I had my eyes opened. Nothing against you personally Norm, but all witchcraft is NOT Wicca. Wicca is a subset of witchcraft. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Question >Recent claims that ONLY Wicca is witchcraft is stupid, criminal, and an insult to quite >a number of Witch traditions out there that predate Wicca by centuries. "Wicca" ("Wicce") is the original, therefore, OLDER term!!!!!!!!!!! Most Witches don't realise tht. >Sorry, this is one of my personal sore spots. I used to claim that ONLY Wicca had >witches in it, and that all Witches were Wiccan, but I did some meditation and had a one >to one encounter with Hekate (the witch queen of the Greeks and the goddess of magick) >and I had my eyes opened. I've had many encounters with Her....have actually SEEN and SPOKEN to her....and vice-versa. >Nothing against you personally Norm, but all witchcraft is NOT Wicca. Wicca is a subset >of witchcraft. True, but again, how do u make my site LESS confusing??!??!?!?!?! Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay > >Witches don't do evil. > > > >Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make > >their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Wicca has the Rede, but most other > >schools of witchcraft don't. In fact, I can't think of any other magickal tradition, > >with the possible exception of the OTO and Christianity, that have such statements of > >ethics. And neither of them are witchcraft traditions. > > > True.....BUT....how would YOU word it, as not to be confusing to a Cowan???? Wiccans don't do evil.... and continue from there. You are mostly talking about Wicca and it's myriad traditions, right? > >Witches do NOT believe in or worship Satan, and do not perform any sort of human or > >animal sacrifices. > > > >Some witches do believe and worship Satan, such as the whole LeVey set. > > > THEY ARE NOT WITCHES! there is no such thing as a "satanic witch", > despite what LeVey says! If you disagree, then > DEFINE "satanic witch"! LeVey's version of "satanism" is NOT the same > as the original meaning. -- "the worship of satan". So change it to Wiccans and let it go. Say "Wiccans do NOT believe in or worship Satan..." and I won't have any problem with it. That's most of the problem is the confusion between Witchcraft and Wicca. > > HIS is a hedonistic belief that believes in satisfying all your > desires........... Actually its is simply an acknowledgement that altruism does not exist as a part of nature. Believe me, I don't like LeVey's satanism either, and I think it's pretty much petty nonsense. But I do see them as Witches, and they identify as witches, and they are not constrained by Wicca's morals. I still won't let them into my practices though. > > Voodoo does > >perform animal sacrifice all the time, it's integral to their tradition, and while human > >sacrifice isn't practiced, bloodletting and so on is done. > > > I don't recall talking about Voodoo....where?????? You didn't, but it was an example of a witchcraft tradition that does not follow your "witches don't...." statement. I could say the same thing about Santaria or some of the Romany trads. > Me no savvy.......they are EDUCATIONAL books....not "proselytizing"! True, I was being catty. The flood of books that perpetuate inaccurate information makes me see red. Ignore it. Sorry. > >>From the FAQ > > > *I* (and most Witches, i might add) consider this WRONG, because you are > manipulating someone!!!!!!!!!!! > How would YOU word this???????? And, PLS don't mention Strega!!!!!!!!!!!! "It is morally counter to Wicca's ethics to 'target' a spell to a particular individual. Doing so will have consequences that you may not anticipate and that you may not like." or something simmilar. > >Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), > > > >There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. > > > It's BOTH, actually, but you're in the minority, my friend........... It may be a matter of semantics. I see ESP and Telepathy and other psychic abilities as being generated from the body/soul of the practitioner. This means that one would have to have a talent or a gift to allow you to read thoughts, scry other places, astrally project and so on. Magick as opposed to that, anyone can learn to do (as in ceremonial magick). Granted, it's EASIER to do if you can actually see/sense the energy moving around you so it can be directed as you need to, and for THAT sensing you need a psychic gift, but with a sufficiently trained will, and a knowledge that the magick is most likely in a certain place/time, you don't need that psychic gift at all. That's why I say that magick is not the psychic gift. > >Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it > >would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" > >sort-of-thing). > > > >Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. There are Christian Witches and always have > >been. Wicca claimed to be "the Old Religion" in one of Gardner's books, and that is the > >origin of that statement. As for 3 fold law, Wiccan rede and so on, Witchcraft does not > >have those morals, WICCA does. Witchcraft *is* an anything goes way of life. The > >religion part comes from the frame of religion it's practiced in. > > > MAN! I disagree with THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm flabbergasted! There are stories of witches in Greek mythology, witches in legends and in Norse stories. Witchcraft is a nature based system of magick using herbs and plant and the energy of the Earth and Sun and Moon and so on. Systems of religion may be built around it, but witchcraft is not nor has it ever been only a religion. One does not have to worship anything to do witchcraft. > SOME things i agree with....others, NEVER! That is entirely up to you Norm. I'm not doing this because I think that you did wrong or bad or to persecute you, I'm doing it becasue I hate to see a good site like yours spreading information that makes claims that are incorrect. Granted most of the incorrect information comes from making blanket statements, so most of it can be passed by, but I still don't want to see that happen. I'm simply trying to inform. That's all. Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay Daven wrote: >>>>Witches don't do evil. >>> >>>Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Yes! I knew the late Dr. Martello..the stories HE used to tell me............HIS version of Witchcraft (Strega), imho, had NO ethics, and therefore was NOT a "religion". He belonged to the group who claim that Witchcraft=spell casting, magick, Wicca = religion. I don't agree with that --- the "dividing line" is waaay too thin. >Wiccans don't do evil.... and continue from there. You are mostly talking about Wicca and it's myriad traditions, right? > Yes, but, as i said, i don't differentiate between the two.....the differences are too minute. >>desires........... >> >> > >Actually its is simply an acknowledgement that altruism does not exist as a part of >nature. Believe me, I don't like LeVey's satanism either, and I think it's pretty much >petty nonsense. But I do see them as Witches, > on THAT point, i STRONGLY disagree!!!!!!!!!!!!! > and they identify as witches, > They can call themselves Shintos.......but ARE they?!?!? > and they >are not constrained by Wicca's morals. I still won't let them into my practices though. > >You didn't, but it was an example of a witchcraft tradition that does not follow your >"witches don't...." statement. I could say the same thing about Santaria or some of the >Romany trads. > Witchcraft/Voodoo....sticky. Witchcraft is usually defined as originating in Northern Europe......so that lets out "Voodoo"....granted, BOTH are magickal trads, but VERY diffferent.......... >>Me no savvy.......they are EDUCATIONAL books....not "proselytizing"! >> >> > >True, I was being catty. The flood of books that perpetuate inaccurate information >makes me see red. Ignore it. Sorry. > There's SOME valid stuff in them! Don't be so quick to dismiss 'em!!!!!!! >>*I* (and most Witches, i might add) consider this WRONG, because you are >>manipulating someone!!!!!!!!!!! >>How would YOU word this???????? And, PLS don't mention Strega!!!!!!!!!!!! >> >> > >"It is morally counter to Wicca's ethics to 'target' a spell to a particular individual. >Doing so will have consequences that you may not anticipate and that you may not like." >or something simmilar. > ....but, you're differentiating between Wicca and Witchcraft. >>>Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), >>> >>>There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. >>> >>> >>> >>It's BOTH, actually, but you're in the minority, my friend........... >> >> > >It may be a matter of semantics. I see ESP and Telepathy and other psychic abilities as >being generated from the body/soul of the practitioner. This means that one would have >to have a talent or a gift to allow you to read thoughts, scry other places, astrally >project and so on. Magick as opposed to that, anyone can learn to do (as in ceremonial >magick). Granted, it's EASIER to do if you can actually see/sense the energy moving >around you so it can be directed as you need to, and for THAT sensing you need a psychic >gift, but with a sufficiently trained will, and a knowledge that the magick is most >likely in a certain place/time, you don't need that psychic gift at all. > >That's why I say that magick is not the psychic gift. > But, being psychic GREATLY helps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) >>>Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it >>>would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" >>>sort-of-thing). >>> >>>Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. >>> I TOTALLY DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>> There are Christian Witches and always have been. >>> As i said in one of my articles, YES, there are...but, sooner or later you have to choose ONE, because their belief systems are NOT totally compatible!!!!! > I'm not doing this because I think that you did wrong >or bad or to persecute you, I'm doing it becasue I hate to see a good site like yours >spreading information that makes claims that are incorrect. > IN YOUR OPINION................i'm waiting to hear from my Online group........they come from all over the country, and encompass MANY belief systems......... > Granted most of the >incorrect information comes from making blanket statements, so most of it can be passed >by, but I still don't want to see that happen. > >I'm simply trying to inform. That's all. > Nothing wrong with "informing", but WHO"S info?????????? Norm > >Daven > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: Re: Okaaaaay As you will. I was only trying to help. Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Stormy Windwalker" To: ; Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [TheTwistedWitches] HELP! My answers are in green......Stormy Windwalker ----- Original Message ----- From: Norm Vogel To: TheTwistedWitches ; davensjournal@davensjournal.com Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: [TheTwistedWitches] HELP! > A Witch has written me, criticising some of the statements i made on my > website......they are below. I'm asking for all of YOUR opinion on > what he has to say..........i'm also enclosing his email addy, so you > can write to him directly..... > but, PLS SEND ME A COPY OF YOUR EMAIL TO HIM!!!!!!!!! No need to rewrite your website, Norm...this guy doesn't know squat of what he is talking about..... > And, IF you agree with him, i would like you to re-word my site.....the > utmost thing in my mind is not to confuse Cowans....... > I can't say that "Witches are so-and-so, EXCEPT if this-and-that, OR > this-and-the-other........ > > Here's his letter: (HIS remarks have the red line next to them) > > ======================= > > >Okay, here is what I saw that is, in my research and thoughts, incorrect. Please note I > >did not focus on dogmatic differences, like your definition of Wiccan and Witch, > >although I wanted to. > > > >Daven > > > >>From the Facts page: > > > > >Witches don't do evil. > > > >Some witches do. A number of witches, including Strega and so on use witchcraft to make > >their lives easier and to hurt their enemies. Wicca has the Rede, but most other > >schools of witchcraft don't. In fact, I can't think of any other magickal tradition, > >with the possible exception of the OTO and Christianity, that have such statements of > >ethics. And neither of them are witchcraft traditions. I beg to differ about the Strega Witches doing harm to anyone....this is not a true fact and I think you better get yourself a book on Strega Witchcraft before you pose answers like this...OTO Tradition is a Witchcraft tradition, my dear Daven....ethnics are written in our Rede...which you should read the WHOLE rede before passing judgement.... > True.....BUT....how would YOU word it, as not to be confusing to a Cowan???? > > > > > >Witches also believe in the "Three-Fold Law" > > > >Once again, confusing the morality of Wicca with Witchcraft in general. Voodoo witches > >don't have this, nor do Strega. Strega Witches do believe in the three fold law...and there is no such thing as a "Voodoo Witch"...a Priest and Priestess maybe, and even a Gro Mamaba, a High Priestess in the Voodoo Tradition...but no Voodoo Witches... > That can easily be fixed. But, WHAT, pray tell, is a "Voodoo > Witch"?!?!?!?!! You make it seem like a "mish-mosh" of any sort of > belief! Are there Buddhist Witches?!?!? > > > > > >Witches do NOT believe in or worship Satan, and do not perform any sort of human or > > >animal sacrifices. Now, this answer is right.....but the one below...uh-uh, there are no Satanic Witches....LeVey was full of dog poop when he wrote all his crap....Satanism is a inverted mirror of the Christian religion.... > >Some witches do believe and worship Satan, such as the whole LeVey set. > > > > THEY ARE NOT WITCHES! there is no such thing as a "satanic witch", > despite what LeVey says! If you disagree, then > DEFINE "satanic witch"! LeVey's version of "satanism" is NOT the same > as the original meaning. -- "the worship of satan". > > HIS is a hedonistic belief that believes in satisfying all your > desires........... Very Correctly put, Norm..... > > > Voodoo does > >perform animal sacrifice all the time, it's integral to their tradition, and while human > >sacrifice isn't practiced, bloodletting and so on is done. > > > I don't recall talking about Voodoo....where?????? Norm doesn't mention anything about Voodoo on his pages....but you are right about them performing animal sacrifices...which as soon as the blood is let, the animal is whisked away to the kitchen so the cooks can prepare it for the meals that are eaten after the rituals..... > > > >Satan is a relatively new concept that originated with Christianity. > > > >Incorrect. It actually originated with Zoroaster and the concept of "good god, evil > >god" and duality, it migrated from there to Judaism and Shitan, and from there went to > >Christianity. The actual name may have come from Christianity, but the concept has been > >around for at least two millennia. > > > Yes....the Mazda thing........ok, i'll give u that one. Satan began when Jesus was roaming the earth....he was Jesus's brother, a fallen angel...please read Genesis throughly......Zoraosterism is another form of Witchcraft that didn't begin forming until around Crawley's time, or a few years before his time on this plain.... > > > >We are non-proselytizing; we don't seek to convert anyone . > > > >This is changing in recent years, look at the proliferation of Llewellynesque books that > >keep saying the same thing. > > > Me no savvy.......they are EDUCATIONAL books....not "proselytizing"! Norm is right there...those books are wirtten by the authors who have practiced Witchcraft for many years....they only show you how THEY have performed Witchcraft, not to yank someone into our folds.... > > > >>From the FAQ > > > >You can NOT do a spell to attract a particular individual to you;but you CAN do one to > >attract the person most suited for you. > > > >I beg to differ, it is entirely possible to attract a specific person to you, it's > >called a glamour. Three may be some consequences you don't anticipate, and it may not > >be what you want it to be, but it is possible. For an example of this in Wicca, check > >out "Heather, Confessions of a Witch". > > > *I* (and most Witches, i might add) consider this WRONG, because you are > manipulating someone!!!!!!!!!!! > How would YOU word this???????? And, PLS don't mention Strega!!!!!!!!!!!! You can use magick to bring around a person that suits you....this way you use no one in particular to get the magick to work...any other way is manipulation, of which we never use on anyone... > > > >Since "magick" is actually one's own psychic abilities ("ESP"), > > > >There are a number of witches (including me) who would STRONGLY disagree with that. > > > It's BOTH, actually, but you're in the minority, my friend........... Brother Daven, if you were a true Witch, you would not be here arguing with Norm about his site....and form what I have read and answered from and to you...well, to put it bluntly...ya ain't no damn Witch.....just because you read a few books that told you all the wrong things, you think you outrank all of us seasoned Witches...got news for you Brother....Why don't you pick up Silver RavenWolf, or Scott Cunningham, even Raymond Buckland and real about some real Witches....not those Witches that LeVey talks about...whatever they are..... > > > > > >Witchcraft would NOT be "The Old Religion " (it couldn't be a 'religion', because it > >would have no Morality (3-Fold Law or Wiccan Rede. It would be an "anything goes" > >sort-of-thing). > > > >Witchcraft is not the religion of anything. There are Christian Witches and always have > >been. Wicca claimed to be "the Old Religion" in one of Gardner's books, and that is the > >origin of that statement. As for 3 fold law, Wiccan rede and so on, Witchcraft does not > >have those morals, WICCA does. Witchcraft *is* an anything goes way of life. The > >religion part comes from the frame of religion it's practiced in. > > > MAN! I disagree with THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm flabbergasted! Daven, me thinks you have been hitting the whiskey to hard and either you can't comprehend the english language very well, or you just want to make up your own stuff, but let me tell you one thing...*I* have been a Witch since I can remember...I am 51 now...and an ordained WICCAN CLERGY.....don't you come here with your snobby suggestion that we don't have a religion....Wicca is of the Old Religion and it always will remain of the Old Religion...we don't threaten YOUR religion, which, I know is Christian, or you wouldn't be here in the first place...my suggestion is to go peddle your sarcasms and ignorance to the wind my friend...you just might get better results...Maybe you should take a Bible course to find out what the Bible really says in it...let's see...hhhmmmm....murder, bribery, incest, treachery, gossip, alcholism, gambling, orgies, adultry, coveting another's wife/husband, traitors,....oh, *I* can go on and on about the things that are written in the Bible.....so before YOU start judging another's faith...LOOK AT YOUR OWN FIRST!!! Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". Reverend Debra S Lippitt, HPs Temple of Gaia & The Grove Union > I'm gonna refer your letter to my online group, the Twisted > Witches......i would like THEIR feedback. > > SOME things i agree with....others, NEVER! > > Norm > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Question > >Recent claims that ONLY Wicca is witchcraft is stupid, criminal, and an insult to quite > >a number of Witch traditions out there that predate Wicca by centuries. > > > "Wicca" ("Wicce") is the original, therefore, OLDER term!!!!!!!!!!! > Most Witches don't realise tht. And this makes Wicca, the religion, older? That's saying that Christianity predates Judiasm because the term "Christ" appears in Greek. The word doesn't mean anything. The religion of Wicca is NOT older than Witchcraft. It was created in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner as a ceremonial tradition, as an experiment, and everything else came from that. > I've had many encounters with Her....have actually SEEN and SPOKEN to > her....and vice-versa. As have I. Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: Fin Do what you want. I was trying to help you. SRW is not a witch, she is barely a magickian. Cunningham is one of the fluffiest authors out there. As for your "list" it's nothing but a cheering section for you and your incorrect info. But if you want to knowingly spread misinformation, go right ahead. If I see another response from you or your "list" I will be reporting you to Yahoo as a violation of the TOS. I have been civil to this point, but the insults from those on your "list" are intolerable. I have only tried to help and you resort to juvenile behavior. Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" ; ; Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Fin Daven wrote: >Do what you want. I was trying to help you. > Granted...i will adopt SOME of what u said!!!! >SRW is not a witch, she is barely a magickian. > She's a pain-in-the-ass, for the most part! > Cunningham is one of the fluffiest authors out there. > His "presentation" is VERY "New Age", but it's based on sound magickal theory! > >As for your "list" it's nothing but a cheering section for you and your incorrect info. >But if you want to knowingly spread misinformation, go right ahead. > What BULLSHIT! I asked them for an unbiased opinion.........the woman who responded has been a Witch almost 50 years! AND, she has a Native American heritage, which is (as you know) another Pagan faith. A bit "touchy", aren't we???? > >If I see another response from you or your "list" I will be reporting you to Yahoo as a >violation of the TOS. > TOS?????? What's that? You offered your opinion; i offered MINE. If you were as tolerant and knowledgeable as you claim, you would respect what i have to say, without getting so pissed off. > >I have been civil to this point, but the insults from those on your "list" are >intolerable. I have only tried to help and you resort to juvenile behavior. > WHAT "insults"?!?!?!!? You should read what i wrote to those Nutcases at www.whywiccanssuck.com! Blessings & Chill Out, my Friend! :) Norm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Stormy Windwalker" Mitakuye Oyasin.... Stormy Windwalker (Reverend Debbie Lippitt) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Valkyr" To: "TheTwistedWitches" ; Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 4:24 AM Subject: Re: [TheTwistedWitches] HELP! After just a quick glance, what I see first of all, Norm is talking about Wicca and Witches. Daven is talking Paganism in general.....which would include anything that is not one of the so called Major World Religions. Witches, as we Pagans see them......do not do evil. Witches and Witch Craft is it's own Path, and not a part of all Paths. If another Tradition chooses to add "Witch" to their title, or members, it is because they choose use it to contradict the "negative label" of the Christians. If I'm not mistaken the term "Witch" was used by the Christians/Romans as a negative connotation to describe someone that believed or used Nature's Magic. I can't remember reading anywhere in Historical documents, or old text, where any Pagan Tradition called themselves "Witches", until after they were labeled by the Christians. For example, (close to home, and most recent) the none Native American Tribes had a word for "witch", nor did they have anything that meant "witch". However, the Christian Missionaries referred the Tribal Medicine Men as "Witch Doctors".......as they did with Tribal Cultures all over the World, i.e. Voodoo. Right or wrong, just my opinion....... Papa Valkyr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Stormy Windwalker" Cc: "Daven" Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [TheTwistedWitches] Re: Fin Well said! Norm Stormy Windwalker wrote: > I see there is question of my ability to work magick and witchcraft, eh? We > did not threaten you to take your opinions to Yahoo, so why are you so > afraid now??? (duplicate text deleted) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (This email was reported to Yahoo for being unsolicited email) From: "Cal Lippitt" To: ; ; "Daven" Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [TheTwistedWitches] Re: Fin I said earlier that he did not WANT to hear my opinions. He crossed the line, and now he will. If you think the list is Norm's cheering section, you don't know much about the list - or Witches. A Serpentstone elder of my acquaintance is known for saying that being a leader of Witches is like herding cats. My wife (whom you seem to disdain) and I have six cats, and I find herding cats to be far less taxing than the role of High Priest. One example of how we are not Norm's cheering section, since you mention someone I consider a friend, is Silver Ravenwolf. I learned much from her, including from one-on-one discussions. I can also say that she did me a kindness which she did not have to. Plus, it was through her that certain things happened which led to my meeting the High Priestess who is now my wife! I respect the fact that Norm has his own opinions of her, and he respects mine. Stormy, Norm and I have had many discussions in which none of us agreed, but that did not stop us from having Norm as the High Priest at our handfasting. Looking over your remarks to Norm, I felt that perhaps I should visit your web site. So far as the technical, graphic, and composition aspects are concerned, it is one of the better ones I have seen. The content is another matter, although it is similar to your comments to Norm. On one page, you include in your description of an athame that its purposes (according to you) include threatening to kill someone with it! Since I follow a warrior-based path, my athame and sword are sharp and of a quality that would guarantee that they would hold their own in combat - but that does not mean that I would use them as weapons in the mundane realm. Not only that, but I would NEVER think of even KIDDING about using either as a weapon, not even among the closest of friends, much less on a web site open to the general public. And this is one issue in which, I believe everyone on the lists will agree with me. Or were you actually being serious with that remark. You also (on the same page, as I recall) have a rite to exorcise fire. Since fire is by its nature a purifying element, it needs no exorcism. And, the incense is purified by the fire as it is consumed. I feel almost compelled to ask if you also wash soap. Your approach to the subject reminds me much of what I have experienced in dealing with college sophomores and Air Force colonels. The college sophomore is an authority after having read a couple of books and attending a few lectures. The colonel has all of the knowledge he needs on a given subject because, after all, he "took that course at the Academy". I am not accusing you of being either. I am merely saying that almost every time that I have seen an approach like yours, it came from either an undergraduate in a field in which actual practitioners have graduate degrees, or an Air Force colonel. And belligerency will get you nowhere. Lighten up, open your eyes, and look some more. Blessed Be Aidan Odinson, HP Temple of Gaia The Grove Union (duplicate text deleted) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (This email was reported for being SPAM to Yahoo and Verizon) From: "Norm Vogel" To: Cc: ; "Daven" Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [UsandGaia] Re: [TheTwistedWitches] Re: Fin Again, Well Said! Norm Cal Lippitt wrote: > I said earlier that he did not WANT to hear my opinions. He crossed the line, and now he will. (duplicate text deleted) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Daven" To: "Norm Vogel" Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [UsandGaia] Re: [TheTwistedWitches] Re: Fin Forward this to the lists you are posting this on. Last warning: I am now reporting people to their ISPs and Yahoogroups for SPAM violations. I am not on your lists, and I have requested that I not be included in your correspondence. Don't be surprised when your accounts get deleted. Cease to include me. There will be no more requests, only reports. Daven (duplicate text deleted) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This next section is Norm's response to his site getting a poor review by myself and others on a review site I am a member of. He seemed to think this was somehow justified in this attack. To see the review, take a look at the Church of Kern Website Reviews at http://www.ourpinkhouse.com/kern/sitelist.php From: "Norm Vogel" To: ; Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: Website Dear Numbskulls -- I am the author of "Witchcraft the FACTS" that you know-it-alls seemingly love to "bash". It's refreshing to see that only YOU have the "correct" understanding of Wicca/Witchcraft, and all the rest of us are wrong. DAVEN: What have i "stolen from other sites?" Graphics? I don't give credit for 'em 'cos i don't want it to look like a "billboard". "Graphic by"....."graphic by".....etc. MY stuff has been "swiped", and *I* don't care.. You are entitled to your opinion about the "diffs" between Wicca/Witchcraft /Pagan.....but so am *I*! if you can give me a definition that EVERYONE agrees on, i will be glad to change it! You make "much ado about nothing". Mine is the ONLY site that states (by the counter) that "nothing is etched in stone"! Do YOUR sites have that!?!? I have been in the Craft over 18 years, am a HP, Teacher, Elder and Rev. so i think my opinion is JUST as valid as you johnny-come-latelys! The only diff is that i don't claim to know EVERYTHING. LIR: (What's your real name, you coward!) Wanna shoot me at 50 paces? Any time you're in NJ, i'd be happy to kick your know-it-all butt! You're fucking with the wrong person when you fuck with ME!!!!!!!! You started it....I"M gonna finish it! Rev. Norm Vogel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Website What's your REAL name, you spineless coward? Come to NJ sometime! I've done more to promote the Craft than you or any 10 of your friends. Norm Daven wrote: >Well, here came the first one. This is Norm Vogel, the gentleman who threatened to bash >Brighn's and my sites on his site should we dare to review his site on the Church Of >Kern. Interesting that he's reacting this way. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Norm Vogel" >To: ; >Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:13 PM >Subject: Website > > >>Dear Numbskulls -- >> >> >Orignial. Childish and juvenile. > > >>I am the author of "Witchcraft the FACTS" that you know-it-alls >>seemingly love to "bash". It's refreshing to see that only YOU have the >>"correct" understanding of Wicca/Witchcraft, and all the rest of us are >>wrong. >> >> >> >When cited facts are incorrect, and multiple different explanations have been forwarded, >suggested and so on, yeah, I think that it's safe to say that your definition is wrong. > > >> DAVEN: What have i "stolen from other sites?" Graphics? I don't give >>credit for 'em 'cos i don't want it to look like a "billboard". >> "Graphic by"....."graphic by".....etc. >> >> > >Do you have their permission to post their graphics to your site? If not, it's a >violation of copyright law. > > >>MY stuff has been "swiped", and *I* don't care.. You are entitled to >>your opinion about the "diffs" between Wicca/Witchcraft /Pagan.....but >>so am *I*! if you can give me a definition that EVERYONE agrees on, i >>will be glad to change it! You make "much ado about nothing". >> >> > >Well, it's your copyright you are not enforcing. Your choice. > > >>Mine is the ONLY site that states (by the counter) that "nothing is >>etched in stone"! Do YOUR sites have that!?!? >> >> > >Yes, it does. > > >> I have been in the Craft over 18 years, am a HP, Teacher, Elder and >>Rev. so i think my opinion is JUST as valid as you johnny-come-latelys! >> The only diff is that i don't claim to know EVERYTHING. >> >> > >No one else claimed to know everything either. Just because you quote the same >incorrect fact for 18 years does not make it right. If that were the case, the sun >would now be rotating around the Earth. > > >> LIR: (What's your real name, you coward!) Wanna shoot me at 50 paces? >>Any time you're in NJ, i'd be happy to kick your know-it-all butt! >>You're fucking with the wrong person when you fuck with ME!!!!!!!! >> >>You started it....I"M gonna finish it! >> >> > >Mature. Good going. > > >>Rev. Norm Vogel >> >> > >Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Norm Vogel" To: "Daven" Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:36 PM Subject: Re: Website Learn to GO PUBLIC and defend our faith, as *I* do! PS....i saw your name.....but r u bsing me again? N Daven wrote: >My real name is no secret. Learn to read. > >Daven ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ......and that's the end of this saga. I'm sure when Norm sees the rebuttal of his precious "Witchcraft the Facts" page on my site, he's going to keep going with something, probably an attempted spell or two, spamming me again, and forwarding everything to his "cheering section" once again. It's sad to see when otherwise intelligent people turn their brains over to someone who is an idiot. I just hope that the people of TwistedWitches and UsandGaia groups have awakened and now understand what he's about. But wait, I have guestbook entries from Norm's site below. Only 4 pages of them, but I think they are a good sample of what happens if you disagree with him. This is most recent first, so if you want to read them in order, go to the end. ==================================== October 22nd 2003 10:13:12 AM Name: Yeah, right Your Website Title: nope Website Desc: sorry How did you find this site? know of you from long ago City / State / Country? why? What would u like to see me add to this site? Whatever... Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Awwww, the pwoor widdle baby getting all upset? Pwoor widdle baaaaabbbbeeeeeeey. Gonna dwewte ebwything cuz he can't handle hearing other points ov view...? Bwame it all on the "big bwad meanines..." Awwwwww.... pwoor bwaby.... ==================================== October 21st 2003 09:00:47 PM Name: None of your beeswax How did you find this site? gollum told me Spirituality? only on fridays **** I'm surprised it's THAT often! -- NOrm What would u like to see me add to this site? something that makes sence. ***** Certainly not YOUR writings.....or spellings! -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I find you to be in utterly bad taste and form. You know nothing of which you speak. I would suck your left nut, but unfortunetly it is attached the the pitifully small thing you call a penis. My penis is between YOUR ears, dickhead! This "tears it"! everything's gonna be deleted! You fuckheads brought it upon yourselves! Norm Email ==================================== October 21st 2003 05:45:52 PM Name: NORM Spirituality? TO THE ******* WHO HAVE BEEN BASHING ME & MY SITE -- What would u like to see me add to this site? Quite frankly, i have NEVER seen "Witches" or "Pagans" who believe the things YOU do. My request (that you show me another site that DOES -- but NOT written by your cronies) still stands. You cannot find one, because there IS NONE. You come to my site, immediately bashing it (Like that idiotic "Church of Kern") without knowing a tinker's cuss about what you're talking about! I've read your site -- you know absolutely NOTHING about the subject. Several people have written to tell me that they have contacted you to defend ME, but you never publish THEIR letters -- you just "bash" THEM. Nice. Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) You ****heads must have an ego problem, 'cos the general concenus is that you have such an inferiority complex that you have to "build yourselves up by bashing others". I find this to be quite true. And, look at your site -- spooky black background, everyone hiding behind a "Witch Name", and images that were taken from a "Goth Festival". Thanks for feeding into the stereotype. I KNOW I PISS YOU OFF! (You have met your Match! ) AND, I LOVE EVERY MINUTE THAT I "GET UNDER YOUR SKIN"! LOL! Get a life! -- Norm ==================================== October 21st 2003 05:02:35 PM Name: Daven What would u like to see me add to this site? Truth. Instead of saying "All witches are..." try saying "most witches are..." **** WHERE do i say "ALL Witches....". If you look at the bottom of my Facts page, you'll see that i'm probably the ONLY website that says that "the opinions on this site are practiced by MOST, but not all, Witches". Where does it say that on the Obsidian site? IT DOESN'T! YOU are "right"....everyone else is WRONG"......WRONG! -- Nightwing, does my website reflect the majority of YOUR views on Witchcraft? PLS BE HONEST! -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I'm sorry Nightwing, I find nothing humorous in someone saying "Suck my left nut" when a poster, a visitor to his site, gently says "This may be wrong, think about changing it to (fill in the blank)" That's uncalled for.**** You guys KILL me! Speaking of this & that "being uncalled for", take a good long look at the Obsidian site -- now, THAT"S uncalled for! You don't write me in your first g'book entry and say "you're wrong about EVERYTHING on your site!". That's BS!!! I'm trying to let this die out (I have better things to do than respond to know-nothing wankers), so i'm ASKING YOU ALL to pls stop writing here! If you don't, I will remove your posts! -- Norm (OK....then suck my RIGHT nut!). Email ==================================== October 21st 2003 12:01:52 PM Name: Nightwing How did you find this site? H.P. sent link City / State / Country? Massachusetts - (The Heart of Pagan Persicution) Spirituality? Wiccan What would u like to see me add to this site? maybe a few graphics...to help drive home your point. Hmmmmm......could u give me some suggestions? I don't like to "overwhelm" my site with graphics, as many others do...... Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Perfect site for the un-informed,who are curious about Wicca/Paganism. Love the way you handle "Negatiive" feed-back with Humor... and Sensitivity that they deserve. **** These posters have beliefs unlike ANY that i've ever seen in the Pagan World.....they believe stuff that MOST Witches would never think of! They ARE entitle to their opinions, but when they blast ME for being "wrong", they've gone too far! A Bles'sed Samhain! Norm Email ==================================== October 20th 2003 06:55:46 PM Name: NORM Spirituality? This is the continuation of the post BELOW this one == What would u like to see me add to this site? Yet, you still insist on perpetuating this wrong definition of Witchcraft and wrong sterotypes. **** Name ONE. I've NEVER seen one that everyone agrees on! -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Did it ever occur to you that your "facts" are, in fact, perpetuating the persecution you seem to feel? Probably not, that would require thinking. **** ...something YOU obviously dont know a THING about! LOL You know Norm, you are a black eye to everyone who calls themselves Pagan. **** how so? You disregard a major section of Paganism, simply because they don't fit your predefined version of the world, **** Who? YOURS???! I'd HARDLY call it a "majority". Find me another site (not written by your cronies) that agrees with YOUR views. you slander those who remain by insisting they fit YOUR mold, despite the fact that they state, repeatedly, that you are incorrect. Where's your inclusion in that? **** I CENSOR people who attack my site maliciously, as you have done....esp. when they're so full of **** as you are You are a fundamentapagan, who is so busy being self-righeous and holy and so wrapped up in being "the Reverend" that you cast aspersions everyplace and insult the very people you are trying to reach. **** If u had known me a few years ago, you would know that I NEVER used to use it.....OTHERS have said that i should. THAt'S why I do it. You are to Witchcraft and Wicca what Jack Chick is to Christianity, and you have a simmilar following. IE, those who can't think for themselves. **** The same would be said for YOUR group! You really desperately need to take this page down, do some real study, do some meditation with the Gods and redetermine your focu ==================================== October 20th 2003 03:59:00 PM Name: Daven How did you find this site? Guestbook hopping City / State / Country? Why? What possible relevance to this can my worldly location have? **** It makes it easier to FIND you! heh-heh-HEH! What would u like to see me add to this site? Some correct "Facts" YOUR "facts"? I think not, my friend. -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Gee, " thick" does not begin to describe you Norm. **** How 'bout "genius"???-- Norm Multiple people have given you "definitions that everyone can live with" and have defined Witchcraft multiple times. Yet, you still insist on perpetuating this wrong definition of Witchcraft and wrong sterotypes. **** Name ONE. I've NEVER seen one that everyone agrees on! -- Norm Did it ever occur to you that your "facts" are, in fact, perpetuating the persecution Email ==================================== October 18th 2003 10:56:06 PM Name: Aodh Mhuirich How did you find this site? browsing pagan sites Spirituality? Celtic Recon' Paganism What would u like to see me add to this site? A group of pages for people who are beyond the starter's level. **** I would disageee with you here. If you could learn (& integate) ALL the info on my pages, you'd be VERY advanced, indeed! The info is deceptively simple, but KNOW IT and PRACTICING IT are NOT!-- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Informative. Good job! Thank you for stating that not all Witches may agree with your definitions (an important caveat that seems lacking in many other places online). The only problem I have with the site is in your facts, where you state that Witches do not worship Satan. I think that such a statement only confirms the unwarranted suspicions that many people may have. I also feel that it's time for us Pagans to drop the whole 'we are not Satanists' line. We need to focus more on what we are than who we are not. Other than that one bit, great job! **** Again, i heartily disagree! The 'satan thing' is THE reason that we're persecuted....even today! If non- Witches who read my site learn only this ONE FACT, it would all be worth it and, in time, the persecutions would stop. -- Norm ==================================== October 18th 2003 08:19:37 PM Name: Skyla How did you find this site? Google City / State / Country? England Spirituality? Wiccan What would u like to see me add to this site? It's great how it is, but anything added to it can only be improvement right **** Not necessarily! Sometimes, you can go "too deep" and confuse people. I try to keep it on an "introductory level". -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) This has got to be the most straight to the point site I have found, its great, most other sites (though good in their own way) faff around and don't really tell you anything (by tell i mean give ideas to think on) all I can say is keep it all up. Oh and would you know how Wicca/Paganism etc can eventually be recognised as a religion in the UK as it is in the US? Skyla x **** Read my Norm's Corner for articles to "think about". Do u have any organised anti-defamation groups over there? That's the FIRST start! -- Norm Email ==================================== October 17th 2003 11:12:49 PM Name: Uma Thurman What would u like to see me add to this site? After checking with the DIA records, we have determined thqat you were right. Indeed, your 'Master of the Universe' title never expires...Please get to work on it at once. We will inform you of special needs the universe may have, once we get our server back on line. Homeland Security has been giving our office a bit of a problem lately due to a series of occult pranks we played on them back in September. (They are such sore losers. ) Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) The Master of the Unverse will do these things in the correct time. (13 o'clock). ==================================== October 17th 2003 09:08:30 PM Name: atothek Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) What happened to my last post>? ==================================== October 17th 2003 07:37:09 PM Name: SMFabal Your Website Title: St Gulik Network Website Desc: The St Gulik Network How did you find this site? The St Gulik Network City / State / Country? Key West FL Spirituality? Discordian Wicca What would u like to see me add to this site? TEXT NAVIGATION! Think about the poor folks out there who don't have computers strong enough for Java, or even (terror of terrors) text only browsers! Besides, that Java thing confuses me. **** If any PC today DOESN"T have JAVA, it must be pretty friggin' OLD! btw....above my "navigation graphics", i have text links, specifically for those people. -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Very nice stuff. Some minor points -> no one really knows the etymology of the word "Warlock" - I have heard it variously ascribed to the Germans, Norman, Gaels, Gauls and Norse. But everyone (almost) agrees that it means "betrayer". (There are a few people who claim the meaning was applyed to some unkown term by the Neo-Pagan Movement as a means of "legitimizing itself" ) **** I agree! -> The concept of Satan came from Judeism, predating Christianity & Zoroastrianism by about 2000 years **** Judiasm???? It's older than THAT! -- Norm ->The "Broom Flying" stereotype come from far more than just the one sample you cited. The broom was a phallic symbol in old pagan traditions, much as the cauldron was a vaginal symbol. The Catholic Church turned both into "witches tools" in an attempt to allow the crucifix to fill the void **** True! But, i didn't want to go into that...esp on TV! LOL! Those are more of the "esoteric" symbolisms, but, yes, you are right. Don't forget -- this is a BEGINNER'S site! -- Norm Other that these (very) minor points, great site! I think you "starters list" for books is one of the most concise and most informative I've seen. I do have one complaint regarding Buckland's Guide: It expects you to purchace several hundred dollars of books, many that have been out of print for years, to "complete the course of study". **** I don't recall THAT in that book! IMHO, Buckland's book stands alone -- it gives a GREAT overview and, in that sense, it's "complete". btw....r u the person who has been writing the "nutty" posts? (below). -- Norm Email Website ==================================== October 17th 2003 06:49:00 PM Name: Atothek, Pastor of South Yorkshire How did you find this site? The Pineal Gland City / State / Country? United Kingdom Spirituality? Make-It-Up-As-You-Go-Along Ltd. What would u like to see me add to this site? I dunno Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Dear Rev. Norm, Although you seem to take all this very seriously, I have to point out that the time has come for you to reach out to the heavens and embrace our Lady Eris. *** Only if she gives me a blow job and sucks on my left nut. -- Norm She is there for you (well, actually she isn't) and she cares (well, actually she doesn't) for you like any other human on this spaceship we call Earth. ***** Just as long as YOU"RE not there, either! -- Norm I have crystals, btw. **** Have u taken them out of your anus yet? -- Norm Email ==================================== October 17th 2003 06:33:28 PM Name: Uma Thurman How did you find this site? astral dice collection agency Spirituality? Anything that kills Bill What would u like to see me add to this site? Pictures of me. (Then again...no.) ***** YES! PLS send me some! I'd LOVE to publish 'em! Put 'em in an 8x10 vanilla envelope and seal it with a kiss. Deposit it in any purple garbage can you can find (esp. if it's in the North-East corner of park, during the waxing moon). Don't put any stamps on it --- just stamp ON it, with your feet, or (better yet) a pair of ballet slippers. -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I was recently informed that you have been contacted repeatedly by members of the Discordian Society who have left various things on this guestbook. **** Yes, but the "things" were starting to CRAWL all over the place -- Norm Please be advised that, as a fully functional and violent avatar of Eris Herself. You have been warned. I have alerted the DIA and your Reverend status is hereby revoked. You may keep your pope status for a further twenty three days only. *** But, my Master of the Universe NEVER expires....Norm You would do well to heed the Discordian Society, as they take this very seriously...at least on fridays. *** Is that every THIRD or FIFTH friday, after the polar magnetic shift? (Or, is it the "swing shif? Minus the "swing", of course"). Not yours at all, **** That's MY Good Forune! -- Norm Uma Thurman Dorje Naljorma Email ==================================== October 16th 2003 09:49:36 AM Name: Gill City / State / Country? UK Spirituality? Pagan What would u like to see me add to this site? I would just like to clarify some facts for you. Wicca is a religion. All wiccans are pagan. **** I agree! -- Norm Wicca is NOT the same as witchcraft therefore wiccans are not automatically wiccans. Witches do not all follow the wiccan rede. **** As I said on my FACTS page, IF you can come up with a definition of "Witch"/"Wiccan" THAT EVERYONE AGREES ON, i'll use it, and give u full credit. You CAN'T -- no one can! So, to avoid hassle, i use them interchangeably -- Norm Male wiccans are called Wiccan - not witch. **** Ok, i'll give you THAT one.....sort of. Since no one can TRULY define the two terms -- there is so much "overlap" -- i use them interchangeably. So, to me, they are the same. -- Norm Email ==================================== October 14th 2003 09:06:53 PM Name: Rev. falonMOON Your Website Title: the Witch Within Me Website Desc: Homepage of the Witch Within Me Yahoo Group How did you find this site? surfing one day City / State / Country? Clearwater, Florida Spirituality? eclectic wiccan What would u like to see me add to this site? chants in real sound -- we all have the "words" but many new folks don't know the melody! **** Hmmmmmm....good point! Can u suggest some? -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I feel so honored to have you as an Advisor in our online group I am looking forward to your trip to Florida- my coven cannot wait to meet you! On the subject of folks bashing you: Don't let the ignorant in the world get you down- inbreeding tends to make brain cells disappear! Love always- falonMOON **** you're assuming they HAD SOME to begin with! LOL! -- Norm Email Website ==================================== October 10th 2003 09:13:05 PM Name: ~~~~ NORM ~~~ What would u like to see me add to this site? Greetings! As you can tell, lately a bunch of no-nothing numbskulls have been bashing me. I've been in the Craft for a long time, and have been bashed by Pagan Newsletters (including a really ****ed-up one here in S. Jersey), Covens, HP/HPS's, etc for standing up for what i believe in.....THEY are content to use "Witchypoo names", and hide under the bed like quaking Jello, 'cos they're afraid that "someone'll find out!". I have been fully "public" for over 15 years now, and have educated many, many people. These "arm-chair critics" don't like that one bit, and so they bash me. I wonder who died and made THEM the Absolute Authority about what's right/wrong. The newsletters have all folded, the groups have disbanded, and yet *I* keep right on educating people! I'm the "Duracell Witch"! LOL! (cont'd below...) Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) This current crop of nutcases have made a LOT of idiotic statements -- for example, if you believe in/worship 'satan', you ARE A WITCH!!!!!! Most of these people have merely a smattering of knowledge, and go around like they're The Only Way....sort of like the Christians! I'm getting tired of their negativity, so i've deleted these posts. Let 'em bash people on THEIR site. That's all they can do, 'cos they HAVE NO Knowledge...... I am not bothered by them in the least, and will continue to educate people LONG after they're gone! 250,000 hits and GROWING! Norm ==================================== October 9th 2003 10:18:07 PM Name: LAscandals How did you find this site? Witchvox City / State / Country? NJ-Ocean county Spirituality? ChristoPagan What would u like to see me add to this site? Cheese *kidding* here's an idea: Why don't you make an animated gif of a minister from that baptist church that you have linked here on your website on his knee's giving satan a blow job, just for nyuks? **** I'll see what i can do! Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Could I get a spell from you?**just kidding** Yo, I went to that Baptist site about Mathew Shepard and couldn't find an email address for them to tear them a new bung hole. Those people are ******* sick! Can't the family of Shepard sue these psychotic morons? **** I'm surprised they HAVEN'T. BTW, I like your website very much. **** Thank you! Norm ==================================== September 30th 2003 07:05:51 PM Name: Christi Your Website Title: dont have a website How did you find this site? search City / State / Country? MD Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Great site! Lots of info...It helped me with a school project hehe...Keep it up! **** Thank you! Norm Email ==================================== September 16th 2003 10:57:44 AM Name: Lady Silverwolf Your Website Title: Silverfir Grove Website Desc: A website containing numerous articles about wicca How did you find this site? You linked it to your email City / State / Country? Sheridan, WY Spirituality? Wiccan Ministers Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Pretty informative site. **** Thank you! Norm Email Website ==================================== September 9th 2003 11:04:34 AM Name: A Seeker How did you find this site? Through a search engine Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) This is a great site. Thanks so much putting it out there. Blessings **** Thank you! Norm ==================================== August 27th 2003 08:16:31 AM Name: Rosemary Your Website Title: The Daily Terminal Zenith Man Website Desc: Custom handcrafted altars, ritual tools and stained glass art. How did you find this site? top site City / State / Country? NY Spirituality? Pagan Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Great site-thanks!!!! **** Thank YOU! I visited your site, but couldn't find any of the items you make. Pls let me know. Norm Email Website My Guestbook ==================================== August 11th 2003 12:56:59 PM Name: christal How did you find this site? lookin through witchcraft sites City / State / Country? baltimore md usa What would u like to see me add to this site? i would lk u to add more pics on witchcraft because i m really into witchcraft n ive been lookin for pics to put on my page to show my hobbies n intrests and i really cant find ne that i lk **** Pictures of WHAT, for instance???? Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) i just wanted to kno if u can ssummon someone without them being dead. mayb while they r sleeping or something u kno. u see im new at this n im lookin at web sites to find out all i can. i have me n my 3 friends that we wanted to get together n make our own coven. i m the east/air. please email me bac because i really wanted to kno the answer to this question. thanx **** You could COMMUNICATE with them while they're sleeping.."summoning" them would be maniuplation. IF your qroup is positive, you'll find that the people you're seeking will find YOU!!!!!!! Norm Email ==================================== August 2nd 2003 01:09:02 PM Name: Jeremy How did you find this site? Just surfed in a few years ago. Been showin up ever since City / State / Country? OK/USA What would u like to see me add to this site? ...It seems perfect already! Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Love the new site, Norm! Read all your latest at "Norm's Corner" I especially liked the Ocean City photos. Very silly. Blessed Be Email ==================================== July 15th 2003 07:31:16 PM Name: lunarfaerie Your Website Title: ~*Surreal Essence*~ Website Desc: Poetry Site How did you find this site? through Yahoo City / State / Country? Hillsborough, NJ but moving back to Oklahoma soon Spirituality? Wicca Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I think that your site is amazing and very helpful. I linked to your facts page in a forum where they were quite confused on witchcraft and the general subject. Thank you for being so informative for them! Website ==================================== June 30th 2003 05:12:07 PM Name: Stephen (Sky) O'Neill Your Website Title: Skywatch1 Welcomes You Website Desc: Earth Science How did you find this site? WitchVox City / State / Country? Moving to Ridgwood, NJ From Long Island Spirituality? Pagan..... Path is WICCA Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Greetings, Your site is Blessed...... Blessing to you, yours and all that stop by. SKY **** Welcome to NJ! I always enjoy meeting/talking to Witches in my own state. Pls keep in touch! BB, Norm Email Website ==================================== June 15th 2003 09:42:53 PM Name: Nocturn How did you find this site? A friend guided me City / State / Country? Sterling, Illinois, U.S.A Spirituality? Wiccan, Buddhist.....everlasting seeker........... Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Great Site, Very informative, perfect for sharing with people who shy away from learning about this religion. Merry part and blessed be!....... **** THANK YOU! Norm Email ==================================== June 12th 2003 04:58:40 PM Name: Mannanon Mac Lir Your Website Title: Liu Institute International Website Desc: Taiji, Kung Fu, Health & Wellness How did you find this site? An Old Friend City / State / Country? Mobile, Alabama, United States Spirituality? Wiccan, Buddhist, Daoist What would u like to see me add to this site? This is a response for the entry below. At first, I couldn't figure out what this is all about.....then i realised that it is YOU and I that you're talking about.....i will write to you privately about this. Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) An old friend, once upon a time, was a spiritual guide for me. He helped me with a great many issues in my life. And then I introduced him to my ex-girlfriend...and he blocked me from his mailing address without allowing me a chance to say anything. (most wisely) And now that I have been dedicated into a circle, and she has been outcast from my coven, I wish to renew the contact with that Witch...that generous caretaker...and I wish to say that I'm sorry. I still don't know quite what made him block me...I never did quite know. But I do apologize for whatever great negativity caused that. And I ask another chance. Another chance, Norm...is that too much to give to me...old friend? I am in need of spiritual guidance now more than ever. And I did truly respect this man's opinion...yet I have gone blind...until I met my circle. But even now...I need much help. Change is everywhere in my life... I have disobeyed you in asking this, since your e-mail went from inquisitive and gradually to banning me from ever contacting you again. But Norm, I valued our friendship, I make this my only attempt...if this yields nothing, nothing more shall I do. I have NO idea what was said between you and my exgirlfriend...but I do wish things of love and trust to be said between us, if this is still possible amongst two such old acquaitances... Merry we had met, and merry I hope we now part. Until we meet again. Blessed be, in all you do. And Goddess bless. Email Website ==================================== May 29th 2003 01:41:15 PM Name: Dragon Goddess Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I finished writing my fluffy page if you want to read it. I quoted you on part of it. I hope that's, ok. I gave you full credit for the quote. The quote was something you wrote in my guestbook. Well, have a great day. Website ==================================== May 10th 2003 07:45:24 PM Name: Dragon Goddess Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) You signed my guestbook. I think you missed my point on the fluffy page. But that's ok. I wrote it to complain about the conceded pagans who think they are all that and a bag of chips. Who like to throw the word around. Just to diss other pagans because they think they are better than every one else. You know people like from the church of Kern. Any way I plain to rewrite it. Website ==================================== May 7th 2003 12:05:10 AM Name: Beth How did you find this site? Old Friends Spirituality? Me: Witch; He: Very Christian What would u like to see me add to this site? Well said! - Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Dropping in to say Hi!! The two of us will never understand what all the fuss is about re. religion.......if one is truly supported emotionally, spiritually, psychically by one's faith, there is no necessity to bash anyone else's path!! The hate mongers continue, only because they doubt what they espouse to be the one and only Truth. No Man has ever seen the face of the Creator....... Living a "mixed marriage" has brought us a few challenges; however, not once have either of us purported to know so much that we could call the other wrong.....a good part of the joy in our marriage comes from sharing our beliefs.....we pray at each other's altar....our children attended Easter Mass at the Blessed Sacrament here in Sacto., AND Ostara in the hills of Bangor!!! It enriches their lives and OURS!!! After all....call Him Pan/Jesus/Buddha........call Her Mary/Goddess/Mother/Maiden/Kali/Crone..........we VISUALIZE and see what we most need to see given our own individual circumstances!!!!! Once more: "ALL THOSE WHO TRULY SEEK ARE WORSHIPPING THE SAME CREATOR!!!" From what I've seen the last few months, the only gain to be had from one man insisting he is the ONLY AUTHORITY, is sufferring, starvation, disease, and fear......I can't accept that the One who Created All, meant to have that Creation defiled in such a way........that said, it's good to be home..... G'Bless! Ethan (and Beth too) Email ==================================== April 30th 2003 05:06:13 AM Name: nikita How did you find this site? i was looking for real infomation about the craft City / State / Country? new zealand Spirituality? christian parents but i myself are unsure i definitly beleive in god though What would u like to see me add to this site? a bit more info on the true origin of the craft i found the information interesting but not very detailed (more facts). **** This is an INTRODUCTORY site....the info you're seeking can be found in books. However, the origins of Witchcraft have been lost in the Mists of Time, with the Christians "helping" by destroying much of the early material. I would recommend "Buckland's Complete Book of Witchcraft" for the info you're seeking. I agree with you -- "Rev" Phelps Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I really enjoyed comeing into this sight and im almost certain i will be back i was however absolutely repulsed by that guy who is spreding horrible messages about homosexuality i personally am straight but i have no problem with them they eat sleep and breath just like evryone else so what means this man should treat them any less equal just because of their sexual preferances this man needs to take a good look at himself and ask himself what god is thinking of his behaviour it is not for him or any other human being to judge the outcome of gods judgement on those who may have or may not have sinned and i want the family of matt to know im truely sorry for the tragic loss this is what happens when humans take law into their own hands and judge others it is not for man to judge what is or is not a sin it is for god to judge p.s your web sight is totally awesome dude Email ==================================== April 28th 2003 05:52:22 PM Name: Dragon Goddess Your Website Title: Magickal Dragon Dreams How did you find this site? a link on mine City / State / Country? Iowa USA Spirituality? eclectic pagan Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I just stoped by to say, hi. Come by my site some time and read "The New Definition of Fluffy" by me. It's on my "To Whom it May Concern" page and tell me what you think. It's my new way to mess with people. I think it's funny. Have a great day. **** i WILL! Is it only ME, but have Witches (and Pagans, in general) become more "wuss-ified" lately???? Bleech! Norm Website ==================================== April 28th 2003 04:16:41 PM Name: Shy_Girl How did you find this site? just looking for information about witchcraft City / State / Country? Phoenix, Arizona US Spirituality? Chritian/Catholic What would u like to see me add to this site? i think that the site is perfect. **** Thank you! I try! Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) i would like to have some spells but i dont want be rude and ask for any. i just want to know if you can teach me some ways i can learn to make up my own spells. **** I make MINE up on the spur of the moment. See my definitions of "magick". You have to be able to visualise something, hold that image, and "project" it thru your psychic ability. That's all that "spells" out. The candles, incense, etc. are only "props" to allow you to "focus". I frequently concentrate by looking into a candle's flame. That's really all there is to it! REALLY! Norm (BUT, it's an ability that you have to develop! One person can take a piano and play Rachmanninoff; someone else can just play "chopsticks". Nothing wrong with the PIANO! It's your ABILITY! Hope this helps! ==================================== April 24th 2003 11:45:21 AM Name: NORM Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) What's with everyone? No one has signed my g'book since JAN! Don't let my response to the entry below "turn you off". The individual who wrote that was part of a group of people seeking to discredit me in the Craft. Such things ALWAYS happen when someone is envious of you and what you've accomplished. Instead of CONTRIBUTING, these "arm-chair critics" do nothing but criticise! Norm ==================================== January 27th 2003 11:02:02 AM Name: Jennifer City / State / Country? MI Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) (no comment) Website ==================================== January 26th 2003 10:24:13 AM Name: Jennifer City / State / Country? MI What would u like to see me add to this site? For someone who claims so much expierence--- your research stinks. Where did you get your "Facts"? Straight outta $RW's books? **** Who the fuck died and made YOU the Goddess?!?!?! I have been in the Craft over 18 years, and have studied the Occult since i was 13 (I'm 51 now). My "Facts" sheet has been xeroxed tens of thousands of times (no exaggeration!) and has been circulated all over the world. It even appeared in the 10/90 issue of Fate Magazine, and was praised by Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Donald Michael Kraig, author and ceremonial magician. It has been used as the "standard" by the internationally-known WARD and WADL. And, in all these years, no one has ever so completely bashed it. Until now. Are you one of those dickheads from Daven's ilk?????? Probably. For someone who DOESN'T have any sort of Wiccan site, you can sure "TALK a good show"! Are my so-called "errors" REALLY "errors" or just DIFFERENCES OF OPINION between you and I? There's a Big Difference, you know! It may interest you to know that the philosophies on my pages are followed by at LEAST 80-90% of all Witches/Wiccans today.....if your way is so very different, you're probably part of a "Trad", which, quite frankly, I have no use for. Your belief system has "fossilised" just like the Christian faiths...OURS is continually changing. Get a life, asshole! Norm Email ==================================== January 24th 2003 06:32:36 PM Name: Dragon Goddess Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Well, the losers at "the Church of Kern" are at it again. Here is their new bashing site: http://www.ourpinkhouse.com/kern/sitelist.php They said some whoppers about your site and you. **** Yes, I saw all that BS. They've set themselves up as "THE experts" of Wicca! I was particularly annoyed with "Lir" (what a spineless jellyfish not to use their real name!) who wanted to "shoot me at 50 paces"! TRY IT, BITCH!!!!!! Better still, cast your most Terrible spell against me....and, we'll see what happens! Norm ==================================== January 9th 2003 03:32:57 PM Name: Kelly Your Website Title: inFx Graphic Productions Website Desc: An amazing collection of graphics, goodies, dollz, stories and magick! How did you find this site? Norm visits Witches Helping Witches so I wandered in to see what he was up to! City / State / Country? Calgary, Alberta Canada Spirituality? Wiccan What would u like to see me add to this site? Heh... you know me, Norm... I wanna spruce the place up a little with some Witchy Graphics and Goodies!!! Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) ummmmm do you have a spell for.... just kidding You've done really well here!! I downloaded every single piece of your music I could get my hands on, LMAO Blessings Always, Phœnix Email Website ==================================== January 7th 2003 07:52:43 AM Name: Kimberley How did you find this site? linked from silver wolf City / State / Country? West Sussex Spirituality? wiccan Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) Went to that vile site and am still lost for words. On a lighter note, i am looking for a guide/teacher. I am a beginner but have been interested in wicca for a few years. Email ==================================== January 6th 2003 04:26:15 PM Name: Dani How did you find this site? It's in your sig! City / State / Country? Tidewater area of Virginia, USA Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I bookmarked this site 'cause it has something I think is way cool and is something I've needed for a long L O N G time: a Sabbot Clock. Thank you for existing. **** Thank YOU! ANYONE is invited to use the code......just email me with the URL that it's on! It's a VERY complex javascript program (100+ lines) that can handle leap years, and a lot of other changes! -- Norm ==================================== January 5th 2003 12:57:31 AM Name: George M How did you find this site? Bored with my spirituality and looked around City / State / Country? Waianae/Hawaii Spirituality? raised Christian/now ?(long story) What would u like to see me add to this site? More facts on the aspect of worshipping....I don't know like maybe how can someone like me (knows nothing of witchcraft) really find if this is for them. **** Pls ready my "Sabbats" and "Circle Casting" page....actually, my entire site! If it feels "comfortable" with you, you're probably suited for it! -- Norm Comments: (Forget about asking for spells!) I never knew males were called witches....Things ive read always centered around the female aspect(?). And also about the defination of a Warlock...Finally i can put that question to rest. **** Glad I cleared that up! --- Norm Email